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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 1d

Oh thank god Qud's widely accepted in the "traditional" club lmao. I remember there being Discourse at some point but I'm also in the camp of "the term is meaningless if something like Qud doesn't qualify"

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

Oh also part of what made "roguelites" "lite" was DURATION. A winning run of, say, Nethack wasa BIG time investment and every turn had a lot of required foresight and game knowledge. A winning run of Spelunky is like 90 minutes tops. If it's longer the ghost catches you and kills you

pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

There's debate on if Caves of Qud is a "traditional roguelike" or not, and if it's not, it's probably the closest you can possibly get WITHOUT "counting" (the no permadeath mode isn't the reason, it's the VERY GOOD but not procgen storyline and RPG mechanics)

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

I think it's probably in the same camp as (Pokémon) Mystery Dungeon: the EXTREME levels of systemic interaction aren't quite up to "traditional roguelike" standards, but they ARE dungeon crawlers with procgen. Metaprog IS right out for the "traditional roguelike" label, though and Izuna/MD have that

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

Thankfully that crowd is still thriving and has grudgingly accepted their genre name being redefined as "traditional roguelikes" lmao. Nobody's trying to claim Spelunky or Isaac or Hades is one of those.

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

The berlin guys drawing a line in the sand over ASCII graphics or "being in a dungeon" really is a relic of its time. Nowadays it reads like elitism but at the time the community around "traditional roguelikes" was trying to maintain a coherent identity instead of being the next "RPG" or "FPS"

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

By the time people bothered questioning how much the Berlin Interpretation mattered for a genre name or which individual factors mattered, both -like and -lite were already in use for any game that has 'runs' and procedural generation

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

Pedantry over -like/-lite was about a much much more exclusive definition of -like that very few games that have claimed the genre name follow: www.roguebasin.com/index.php/Be...

Berlin Interpretation - RogueBasin

www.roguebasin.com

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

And Spelunky has no metaprog whatsoever. It's every aspect of roguelike philosophy (permadeath, fresh start, procgen, every object can Verb every other object), applied to an action platformer instead of a dungeon crawl. The fact it was an action game was what made it -lite :(

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

The lite/like dichotomy is unfortunately complete bunk. Even when it had meaning, it wasn't about metaprog. "Like" meant games that were literally like Rogue. Nethack type stuff that's "turn based" but the whole dungeon takes a turn when you do. Spelunky was one of the first games to lean on "-lite"

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

"HADES: A GOD-LIKE ACTION RPG WITH PROCEDURALLY GENERATED ELEMENTS WHERE YOU PERMANENTLY GET STRONGER WITH EVERY DEATH" just doesn't sound as snappy as "A GOD-LIKE ROGUE-LIKE" and I don't begrudge Supergiant (that much) for using the latter lmao

pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

And it wouldn't be so frustrating if "run based stat grind games" had their own catchy genre name! I'm not immune to Vampire Survivors or Hades or Rogue Legacy! Those games rule! But it makes talking about games where the main FEATURE is the lack of "my character gets stronger the more I play" hard.

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

The trend I'm describing here goes back REALLY far, to stuff like Rogue Legacy. But I think Vampire Survivors (great dopamine farm / numbers go up game!) popping off as hard as it did was responsible for the boom in "roguelike-like" games where You (100hr save file) is 15x the dps of You (Run 1).

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

But also, after following every narrative thread I cared about in Hades to their conclusions, I've never once had the urge to just "do a Hades run" since. And that's fine, because the Hades team wasn't setting out to make Spire or Spelunky or whatever.

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

The big exception here is Hades. Hades is exactly what I'm describing here. But ALSO, the "grind hours" are an engaging game in their own right, with the characters and stories and VA constantly flooding the player with novelty and excitement even if the RUNS are grinding resources to get stronger.

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

If I wanted to play something easy for 15 hours I wouldn't be looking for roguelikes, I'd play a 15 hour game that's a guided experience instead of procgen
If I wanted to sink 100 hours into a game to eventually make my dude do +20% dps I'd install world of warcraft

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

And Spire isn't even REALLY an example of this, because Asc 0 Spire isn't a babby easy game where you just click cards and watch fireworks. A lot of games "in the genre" are so afraid to tell the player "no, you lose" that they make their "A0" about as hard as the first hour of a pokemon game

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

I love Slay the Spire man, I really do. Hundreds of hours, still play semiregularly, A20 heart etc etc

That game does not need twenty granular difficulty levels. The game of A20 Heart StS does not need to be locked behind EIGHTY WINS ON VARIOUS LEVELS OF EASY MODE.

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

The alternative is common and pretty annoying too: you buy a new roguelike, excited to learn the new systems and get your teeth kicked in, and you just effortlessly win your first run. Then the game helpfully explains that that was difficulty level zero for babies, congrats on unlocking level 1!

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

>looking for a new game
>ask the indie dev if their game is roguelike or grind for stats
>they don't understand
>pull out illustrated diagram explaing what is roguelike and what is stat grind
>they laugh and say “it’s a good game sir”
>buy a copy
>it's grind for stats

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pory @ssbporygon.bsky.social · 2d

Honestly one of the most devastating and FREQUENT disappointments in my gaming life lately has been installing a new "roguelike" game or demo, losing the first run, and then immediately being awarded 50 schmeeblos that I can spend on a permanent +5% weapon damage or some shit.