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Zeno Rogue

@zenorogue.bsky.social

1.5K followers 410 following 900 posts

roguelikes, mathematics, non-Euclidean geometry HyperRogue (non-Euclidean roguelike), RogueViz, ZenoRogue (non-Euclidean visualization) on YouTube, Hydra Slayer (math roguelike).

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · Oct 28

OK, so to introduce myself:

My first online presence was ~2000, when I joined the #roguelike* communities to talk about the best games ever, such as ADOM, Crawl, IVAN.

Then I became a roguelike developer too. HyperRogue is probably the biggest** non-Euclidean game!

HyperRogue on Steam

A truly non-Euclidean tactical puzzle/roguelike!

store.steampowered.com

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 2h

I remember being asked about moalkins :) You could try, but I probably do not remember the ending...

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 1d

BI was more of a source of confusion, it explained permadeath so well that it inspired Spelunky and Isaac devs. And then people reading BI without playing actual roguelikes assumed that permadeath was some crucial thing, while pre-BI definitions often did not even mention permadeath.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 1d

If you move and fight like in Rogue, and has procgen, it is probably accepted. Berlin Interpretation is more of a list of cool things that the roguelike community was interested in, it makes it quite clear that not all of them are necessary in every game.

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 1d

Just like ADOM, which was always considered a roguelike, and it has not procgen storyline and RPG mechanics? Caves of Qud is the most popular game in the roguelike community on Reddit. (Although not the one on Discord, it seems, for whom newer games such as DCSS appear to be the model roguelike.)

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 3d

Does not work well in Linux. Our set has tracking stations and we get unreliability / precision issues, aren't these supposed to be worse in those without tracking stations?

We make VR stuff but we not really interested in playing VR games, and it appears other people working on VR are similar.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 3d

There are more accessibility issues. Motion sickness, as already mentioned. You cannot play some games if there is not enough free space in your room. My wife likes to watch me play games and we cannot do that in VR.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 7d

But what action RPGs did you like? Diablo and Path of Exile are very similar to roguelikes, much more than Hades, which is just a parody of roguelike players who think that the correct way to play is to restart when you die.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 7d

Contrary to Diablo, in more literal roguelikes you control the flow of time, so easy combat can be very fast (modern roguelikes often automatize it), but when it is not so easy, you can spend hours thinking about your next move. Which allows more depth. Fun all the time, basically.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 7d

I go by the conspiracy theory which says that, since actual roguelikes (= Rogue's system of controlling the flow of time) are usually free and do not even force playing repeatedly, but so good that people do so, the game industry hates them and thus tell everyone that it means a game for masochists.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 10d

a tiny world, pretending to be infinite

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 11d

Some run-based roguelikes from 00s were an inspiration for the games in the list, but roguelikes in general can be more like Diablo or Minecraft. Diablo and Minecraft have procedural generation and optional permadeath, similar to actual roguelikes, while the games in the list arguably do not.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 11d

Rogue's system of controlling the flow of time is more fun than being forced to restart when you die. Fans of that system coined "roguelike" in 1993, and the roguelike communities such as the one on Reddit still use roguelike to mean that.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 11d

Aren't you sad about featuring no game that would be considered a roguelike in roguelike communities? Even Caves of Qud that seems more popular than some games here.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 11d

AFAIK some people consider it easy. As in, if you know how, you can build a character who is very hard to kill.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 13d

I think it was Hades, although they were mostly the same time. In a deckbuilder it makes sense at least, although choosing between 17+ possible purchases in Dominion is still better. And newer actual roguelikes (Path of Achra, Jupiter Hell Classic, ...) still let you build whatever you want.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 13d

Easy to find such people online.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 15d

What? Play however you want. Roguelike players always savescummed. Nobody cares.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 15d

But being designed for replayability does not mean that you actually have to replay them? Caves of Qud is not a run-based game. You can play Caves of Qud, ADOM, Terraria, Diablo 1+2, etc. just once, and be done with it. (Other games you mention are run-based and I see what you mean.)

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 15d

That makes sense, although roguelike fans call it "procedural generation" not "heavy RNG" for a reason. Rogue devs wanted a game exciting every time, and that is done best by combining handcrafted content and procgen algos. Today, this power is probably best shown by Caves of Qud and Unexplored 1+2.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 16d

But what games make you anti-roguelike? It looks that you might actually like roguelikes (Caves of Qud) and games sharing their philosophy (the rest of your list), but hate games such as Hades that have basically nothing to do with roguelikes and use that buzzword as an excuse for bad design.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 16d

That sounds interesting, why would it lower the ceiling?

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 20d

Diablo took its item drops (and mostly everything else) from Angband, which took it from Rogue and started the roguelike genre.

Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 22d

Path of Exile is said to be better in the after-game than early in the campaign. Because early campaign was designed early.

The Binding of Isaac, Minecraft, and Terraria also still get updates and more content.

(Of course easier to do some lazy randomness and market that as procgen/roguelike.)

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 22d

The development of Caves of Qud started in 2008 and it was released in 2024.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup still gets updates, and the original Linley's Dungeon Crawl was released in 1995.

No Man's Sky was negatively received at release due to the lack of content, but then it got better with updates.

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Zeno Rogue @zenorogue.bsky.social · 22d

They say that making "roguelikes" makes things easier for developers.

But Rogue devs wanted a game that was exciting every time you played it. That is definitely HARDER than making a game that is exciting once.

Procgen games take ages to mature. Otherwise they feel repetitive.

For example:

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