SINCE 2009?????????????????

-plastics that are that way because of an Actual Reason vs. plastics that are just bullshit. Also see: the shift to cardboard and paper wrapping for products like toilet paper, cardboard and reusable shopping bags, etc. (+ contrast: plastic straws as a medical necessity are REALLY not replaceable.)

There is no practical reason for it to be plastic. It's more flexible than straight bamboo fiber, or other forms of plant fiber, sure; but it's plastic Because It's Cheaper. That's it.

"Getting rid of all plastic" is a nice idea but especially in the immediate term, we need to distinguish between-

(somebody doesn't do their job properly resterilizing something? suddenly a whole bunch of people die. single-use plastic? little easier to take the Stupid Factor out.)

But something like, say, vegan leather, is plastic because it's cheaper than leather and because they can market it to vegans.

The reason they're single-use plastic is for sterility reasons! It's to keep patients and doctors/vets alike safe. Are there other options? A few (very very few) but plastic is the best especially for the amount needed and it's the least likely to get fucked up somewhere in the process.

an actually useful point coming out of this, though, is that plastic *is* everywhere -- but some things are made out of plastic for a reason, and some things are made out of plastic to cut corners.

Medical and veterinary waste is often plastic. This is less than ideal. HOWEVER.

-then yes! so do most things! it's a problem! but when something is literally Made of Plastic it by definition is using more plastic. because it is using all of the same plastic for shipping, etc. that the non-plastic thing is

it is an absolutely wild decision to accuse me of not acting in good faith when i'm actively answering your points and going "but that's not how that works"

anyway gonna restate this: vegan leather is just plastic. and if you're gonna bring the "well the production of leather also uses plastic"-

looking into the tanning industry more in depth just so i can back myself up and while there's definitely *toxicity* related to tanning, it's chemicals like chromium salts, arsenic, formaldehyde, etc. -- not plastic. if there's plastic associated, it's with shipping and other parts of the process

If you don't want to wear leather, don't wear leather! You don't have to! but you do not have to twist yourself into pretzels going "this shittier product that wears out faster is made of plastic, but this non-plastic thing also uses plastic in production, who's to say which is worse", come on.

like this is environmentalism 101. "two things that both use plastic but one lasts longer: the one that lasts longer is the better choice even by a slim margin" and that's if they used the *same* amount of plastic, which they don't

Like, I already said I prioritize secondhand leather so we're talking about "this thing used a bunch of plastic once" vs. "these things used plastic to make, continue to be plastic, put plastic in everything, and last 1/5th of the time". this is pretty easy math.

Because going through three jackets that are literally *shedding microplastics into everything I own and the water in my house* is pretty obviously worse than "here's my one jacket that is not exuding microplastics even if plastics were used in the initial process". This is silly.

Like i have no idea what we're arguing about at this point. Industries and capitalism are bad and use a lot of plastic.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of here. My position is that vegan leather is plastic and significantly worse quality. "I still want to avoid leather" is a perfectly cogent position. Other materials exist.

Which fucking sucks! I hate that! Because getting *new* leather still feeds into a really bad industry -- but that's why I prioritize getting second-hand leather. It's sustainable but it's also not decaying into little scraps of PVC and microplastics all over me in the process.

This process is incredibly environmentally damaging, but it's done so that they can market it as "apple leather" or "bamboo fibre". Meanwhile, bamboo fabric does exist, but it's not flexible! It's used for external coats and bags originally. *All* vegan leathers currently on the market use plastic.

-but leathermaking also exists at an artisan scale while rayon largely doesn't (and would be causing problems even then).

Another massive marketing issue is that "plant based leathers" are usually just rayon. They start as the plant, yes. But then they're processed into or coated in rayon or PVC.

My core issue is that vegan leather just straight up *does not last*. Vegan leather shreds within two years half the time -- meanwhile I still own leather jackets that are third, fourth hand and have at worst minor holes that can be fixed. Everything uses plastic at industrial scale-

I *did* miss that, actually, thank you. My frustrations about how much "vegan" branded stuff is actually worse still apply, I think -- like "go vegan" is a very simple statement that actually implies a lot of very intense work or a lot of not-so-eco-friendly shortcuts

hi I took care of my phone problem, but now I have a hunger and lack of grocery problem. can y'all help me out here pls

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Juan López Moctezuma’s Alucarda (1977) is irreplaceably peak exploitation horror, the proudly Mexican parallel to Jesus Franco and Jean Rollin. Half-forgotten dream memories of Universal’s gothic rules and tropes brought to demonic life in cavernous ruins. Loved how hostile this is?